[02:18:50] --- Russ has left: Disconnected [04:11:48] --- Simon Wilkinson has become available [05:09:29] --- Simon Wilkinson has left [06:03:50] --- Russ has become available [06:57:35] --- dev-zero@jabber.org has become available [06:57:36] --- dev-zero@jabber.org has left: offline [07:47:32] --- edgester has become available [08:05:09] --- kula has left [08:05:09] --- RedBear has left [08:05:17] --- dlc has left [08:05:18] --- Rrrrred has left [08:07:38] --- kula has become available [08:08:20] --- dlc has become available [08:08:33] --- RedBear has become available [08:09:19] --- Rrrrred has become available [08:46:38] * edgester is looking at appendix A of the quick start guide [08:47:20] what a mess. washtool?! Never heard of it and I can't find it in the CVS tree. So it needs to be removed [10:00:22] --- matt has become available [10:31:22] hi matt [10:31:37] hi jason [10:32:04] sorry for the yelling about cvs [10:32:13] --- tkeiser@sinenomine.net/owl has left [10:32:15] As I had missed src/rxk5 and src/k5ssl, I put the proper log msgs in there. does that look ok? [10:32:28] looks great [10:33:18] Cool, thanks for calling it out. [10:33:24] you're welcome [10:33:43] I'm hoping my recent activity will be a trand [10:33:53] of more participation [10:34:18] That would be great. [10:34:24] yes, it would [10:34:46] I seem to have been dormant during the winter [10:35:03] well, as far as openafs goes anyways [10:36:01] It seems like the git migration fizzled, any updates? [10:36:58] I don't have any--my understanding was, we were -almost there- quite a while ago. [10:37:16] Gosh it would be pleasant to be there :) [10:37:23] yes [10:37:42] "almost there" was my understanding as well [11:20:16] --- matt has left [11:33:49] --- Simon Wilkinson has become available [11:34:24] edgester/matt: git fizzled. It's been almost done for ever. [11:34:40] I think the plan now is just to do a naive migration, and rebase the history in at some later date. [11:39:13] Simon Wilkinson: thanks for the info! [11:39:36] I'm hoping that there will be something ready to go for the start of SoC coding. [11:39:44] Gerrit will come along then, too. [11:39:45] awesome [11:40:22] I'm actually trying to work on docs today, the quickstart guide [11:40:55] I did a load of changes to that a few years ago. [11:41:00] Are you working from the copy in CVS? [11:41:21] Simon Wilkinson: do you know aything about the "washtool" command? [11:41:25] yes, CVS head [11:41:45] I know nothing of washtool. [11:41:59] Does the copy you're working on know things about Kerberos v5? [11:42:11] not sure, [11:42:42] "You must have a Kerberos 5 realm running for your site" [11:42:50] is listed in the gernal requirements [11:42:57] ugh, general requirements [11:43:04] Sounds like that's the one I fiddled with. [11:43:25] Unfortunately, I think we've got a technology gap, as those changes never made it through to the website. [11:43:35] yes [11:43:43] er, correct [11:43:47] Yup - shadow committed my chanages in May 2007. [11:43:55] excellent [11:44:06] --- stevenjenkins has left [11:44:49] any specific items to fix in the quickstart or just "fix anything that's wrong" [11:45:12] I think just fix anything that's wrong. [11:45:18] ok [11:45:32] I went through it to add stuff about Kerberos 5, and move kaserver information out into an appendix. [11:46:00] The real thing to find out, though, is what the missing pieces are that are stopping the guides on the website being generated from the xml in CVS. [11:46:13] Otherwise, there isn't really much point in expending effort on the CVS copies ... [11:46:32] I don't think there is ANY automation for that. [11:47:04] There seems to be little or no automation for anything on the website, so that's no surprise. [11:47:23] But, I think the problem was more that there were issues with the HTML that docbook was generating. [11:47:23] --- stevenjenkins has become available [11:47:37] ugh [11:47:50] That is, the HTML that originally came from IBM was regarded as being 'better', than the more up to date information in CVS. [11:48:14] It's probably worth taking a look at what comes out of the docbook conversion, and seeing how readable it is. [11:48:38] IIRC, there was a problem with section breaks when I looked at it, but I couldn't see anything else wrong. [11:49:06] Then, it just requires someone with enough energy to keep pushing until the new documentation makes it to the web site. I started, but ran out of steam. [11:49:11] I would really like to fix the quickstart because the noobs keep using it [11:49:15] Indeed. [11:49:33] And the one in CVS is _already_ magnitudes better than the one on the website. [11:49:44] Is there a SoC studet for the web site this time? [11:49:51] Nope. [11:50:00] do we have a webmaster? [11:50:05] But I think summatusmentis was supposed to be doing it as a non-SoC project. [11:50:10] Not that I'm aware of. [11:50:48] I think this is another area where our preference for cake tomorrow ensures that nothing every actually gets done ... [11:51:01] :( [11:51:57] And the lack of any visible progress takes the steam out of anyone who tries [11:52:14] Indeed. [11:54:35] Any updates on the incorporation efforts? [11:56:07] I think they all got stalled by the lack of any money. [11:56:58] Personally, I think we need to see if we can seperate our need for a Foundation to handle income, from our need for a less dysfunctional organisational structure. [11:59:29] hmm, but donors might not like that. donors will probably expect some authority, which implies that the organizational structure is somewhat links to the foundation [11:59:47] I think bits of the organisational structure are linked, but bits aren't. [12:00:29] It would be nice to be able to do things that help more people get more involved. [12:00:53] And there are numerous barriers to that at present, from our bug tracking system, to our revision control system, to our website, to ... [12:01:14] I think people are aware of them all, but we have this real problem of hanging out for the perfect fix. [12:03:35] yes [12:08:28] what is the proper venue to discuss these issues? would openafs-info be appropriate? [12:11:22] I'm not sure. Either -info or -devel, probably [12:15:59] I'll probably post something on -info [12:18:33] It's worth finding out what the current state of play is with all of this, too ... [12:21:18] do we have anyone who is functioning as a project manager? [12:21:47] For the whole project, or for a particular bit of it? [12:21:56] both [12:22:29] I'd say Derrick and Jeff for the whole project, but I don't think that there's anyone particularly driving individual items at the moment. [12:23:04] Oh, and obviously Russ from the documentation side of things. [12:23:12] of course [12:24:18] well, the status of these projects aren't written down [12:24:39] geez, I think I'm turning into my boss [12:24:56] It's a difficult line to draw ... [12:25:47] Open Source isn't about doing things they way that they happen at work... But not having stuff written down does make it harder to know who's doing what, and what's happening when. [12:26:21] I know. [12:26:51] Of course, the problem with having a "workforce" that doesn't work for you is that there's no way you can actually acheive any milestones you set, or determine the overall direction of the project - you can scream "We should do X" until you're blue in the face, but unless the people doing Y can be made to see things your way, you won't get anywhere. [12:26:55] perhaps a secretary or scribe is more of what I'm thinking of [12:26:55] --- stevenjenkins has left [12:27:50] That's the problem we've got - there's been load of work on standardising various different extensions to AFS, but nobody has had the time and interest to follow them through into completed implementations. [12:28:56] ...but maybe I'm just grumpy today ... [12:29:16] s'ok, grumpy is good, sometimes it's the only way to get things done [12:29:18] :) [12:30:34] --- stevenjenkins has become available [12:32:48] do we have a scoreboard or anything that says what projects are in progress? [12:32:59] and is actively updated? [12:33:02] There's a very out of date list on the website. [12:33:31] http://www.openafs.org/projects.html [12:36:50] There is of course the issue that we don't always know which projects are in progress - some times people won't speak to the community until they drop 150k line patch from a great height. In other cases, projects may be known to the gatekeepers/elders but not discussed publicly due to NDAs and the like. [12:37:50] true, but I'm more interested in public things like the git migration and web site updates [12:39:26] Yeh. We're not great about talking about things in public. We're fragmented between Zephyr, Jabber, IRC and the mailing lists, and lots ends up happening in private conversations. You really need to keep your ear to the ground to keep track of what's going on! [12:39:42] no joke! [12:40:56] But any kind of regular updates seem to happen for a few months then disappear - I can't remember when the last set of elders meeting minutes appeared, for example. [12:41:10] how often do they meet? [12:42:16] Monthly, I think. [12:42:49] wow [12:43:01] And here I think there is no activity [12:43:20] Last set of minutes is November 2007, so let's face it - who knows! [12:43:42] I thought I saw something last year [12:44:39] I can't remember - I just looked in http://www.openafs.org/elders/, and 2007 is the most recent thing there. [12:46:00] ouch, I guess it has been that long [12:46:38] time flies, and all tha. [12:46:43] one of my problems is that I have never been able to get zephyr to work [12:47:01] but I thought jabber replace zephyr [12:47:03] mostly [12:47:40] There are folk on Zephyr who never venture onto Jabber. Some of those know quite a lot about the AFS codebase, so there's still stuff it makes sense to talk about on Zephyr. [12:49:26] how can I get on zephyr? [12:50:02] Speak to Derrick. [12:50:56] k [12:51:10] He can guide you in the right direction ... [12:51:41] ah, and my quest to document the elite lore of AFS continues...;) [12:52:06] ... and a very useful quest it is, too. [12:52:15] thanks! I try. [12:53:02] It's hard though, I often don't responses when I ask questions about things when I'm documenting [12:53:17] My recent NetInfo question on openafs-docs is a good example. [12:53:47] Sometimes that means that people just missed the email. Othertimes it means that nobody knows the answer off the top of their heads. [12:54:09] I only found out about the "f" syntax in Netinfo from a mailing list posting. [12:54:35] --- stevenjenkins has left [12:54:48] I'm now intrigued enough that I'm going to go and read that code ... [12:54:56] Russ compared my work to shining a light on the forgotten cruft [12:55:06] ROFL [12:55:15] excellent [12:56:17] * edgester gives an evil gri [12:56:21] grin [12:56:37] that was completely unintentional, BTW [12:57:14] It's not that I don't konw what netinfo does, it's more of why would you need to use it? [12:58:03] --- stevenjenkins has become available [12:58:05] I can see you wanting to use it in cases where the interfaces on a given machine aren't stable, but you want to list all of the interfaces that _should_ be there in the vldb. [12:58:31] ok, gotcha [12:59:17] By my understanding, the list of interfaces come either from interrogating the host to see what's there, or from the NetInfo file, if one exists. [13:00:35] yes, the union of the two. I just assumed all interfaces were available at AFS boot time, but that's clearly an issue on clients with wifi [13:00:55] Yeh. Or for clients which attach late, or ... [13:01:01] although, I haven't had an issue with afs on my wifi, hmmm [13:01:34] I'd need to check, but I suspect that the way in which clients get registered has changed dramatically from the original IBM documentation. [13:02:07] ie, I think NetInfo and NetRestrict are far more pertinent for file servers than they are for cache managers. [13:02:15] The client must detect new interfaces on the fly, otherwise I would have issues [13:02:20] yes [13:30:52] --- tkeiser@sinenomine.net/owl has become available [14:25:36] --- Simon Wilkinson has left [19:21:20] --- edgester has left [22:12:38] --- reuteras has become available [22:35:42] --- reuteras has left [23:19:42] --- cclausen has become available [23:54:52] --- Russ has left: Disconnected